Episode 9:  “Laughter is Freedom” featuring Charlotte Adigery and Bolis Pupul

Charlotte Adigéry and Bolis Pupul met in Belgium. They both came from immigrant families, and last year they put out one of the most celebrated albums of 2022: Topical Dancer.

MUSIC

The songs are angular electronic rhythms, with a dash of distilled insightful analysis, and undercurrent of playfulness beneath it all. It’s like, yes this music is going to make you want to dance the night away, but while you are sweating, do not check out. Stay present with the complexity of the world, even as you shake your booty. 

MUSIC

They pair have spent the last year touring the album, and I was fascinated to hear how these songs hit in a room, in many rooms, in many cities all over the world.

My name is Meklit and this is Movement: music and migration remixed.

MUSIC OUT

Meklit: Can you tell us about the song Blenda? Was there a specific experience that inspired that song?

Bolis: I think there were several. 

Meklit: Mm.

NARRATION: This is Bolis

Bolis: The many times we heard a sentence, go back to the country where you belong. That's not a mantra, but that's something we heard so many times

Charlotte: That sentence

NARRATION: And this is Charlotte

Charlotte: If I may talk for our black community, it's like, the N word.

Meklit: yes. 

And it carries so much pain and grief. But when you take it back and you use it and you celebrate it, and you sing it, it's a coping mechanism and it's a way of showing that you're strong and that you're, you're bigger than that.

And it's so powerful to play this song live. You could see that people feel seen when they say, Siri, can you tell me where I belong? Or I look like them, but not to them.

Bolis: One of the most emotional moments for me was when we played in Manchester and when we played Blenda. The whole room just shouted like very loud. Don't look like what I sound like, but like their accents, and I thought it was so cute. And also it was so touching. I couldn't hear my monitors anymore. The crowd was even louder.So I, was like, okay, I'm completely lost here. And we were looking at each other and I saw the tears coming up in Charlotte's eyes and I felt the same. And the crowd really sang. Those words so loud.

Charlotte: I remember the first time I was confronted with this extra layer. So it was a white woman, a journalist who told me, I love this song so much. And I heard it on the radio and I was like doing my dishes and singing along to the chorus. And then she said, I felt a little bad singing. Go back to the country where you belong.

Like is it my place to be singing it? And I told her, yeah, but, actually, I'm happy that you felt that awkwardness or that you ask yourself that question. And that's something we also like to do is like a Trojan horse that we put in there somewhere and then before you know it, it's in your mouth and then you don't know what to do and you think about it.

And yeah, I think even though this song is very dancey and happy, it also carries something way, darker and. And also very powerful. 

Meklit: Wow.Thinking about it as a Trojan horse is really interesting cuz I can, just to take it a little further, like I can imagine, you know, a person like that journalist you were talking about, not just thinking about what does it mean for me to sing this, but where else have I heard this? But who in my family is saying this? Like, what does that, what does that mean? It it's like a, 

Charlotte: Yeah. 

Meklit: Like I almost imagine the song like a big ship. And it's like, okay, what comes up in its wake? 

Charlotte: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Meklit: For y'all humor is really important. It's a really important part of what you do. Right? Is that just who you are together? Is that just who you are as people? Like,

Bolis: I think that's, that was one of the first things that really connected between the two of us. We were laughing the whole time and just joking. And while you were writing the album, we found that humor was like our best ally.

Meklit: Mm-hmm. 

Bolis: In addressing certain topics. Because we don't wanna be pointing fingers and saying, this is how you do it, or you're doing it wrong. Being able to laugh is freedom, I think.

Charlotte: And I remember us being a little nervous playing our songs in the US for the first time because we were like, okay, maybe our humor won't work there. Or like the song Esperanto.

Yeah, it's like, don't say this, say this, which was inspired by what we feel is a thing in, in the US that political correctness reaches certain like limits.

And, we were scared, like, okay, will this land, will people find this funny? And yes, they did. And, that's something we hear often now is in the whole woke conversation, which is super important. And I'm happy that this movement is finally there. I think it's also very important to not take yourself to seriously.

And it's not about you making a point or it's, it's not about you. It's about the conversation and you, when you get lost in your ego and then, yeah, but this is me making a point, or, I'm really offended by da da da da da. And using being offended by as a way to broadcast yourself, that's super dangerous and it kills conversation.

And I really believe that humor and the way we address it is one way that can help us. I have conversations and find common grounds where you wouldn't think there's a common ground.

Bolis: The album is actually the conversation Charlotte and I are having in the studio and then being recorded, but it's from our Belgian, European point of view.

And I can imagine that in China or in the US or in Venezuela, it's gonna be  interpreted a bit different, but all reactions we've had so far have been supportive. And that's something that we really didn't expect maybe because it's also very Belgian to not believe in yourself that much.

Meklit: Why am I laughing?

Bolis: Yeah, you're not even Belgian.

Charlotte: Maybe. Yeah. Maybe it's not a Belgian thing then that's why you're laughing.

Bolis: Yeah. Belgians, they really, yeah. They like to keep their feet on the ground and don't dream too big. That's what they.

Meklit: Could you talk a little bit more about the Belgian cultural landscape in questions that I have, like, What's diversity like over there? You know, is it super diverse? 

Charlotte: Next question

Meklit: Girl. No, actually feel free to not answer any question that you don't wanna answer or turn it into whatever question you do wanna answer. But I am, you know, but I am curious about, you know, the cultural landscape, especially around race and immigration and, you know, your perspectives on that.

Charlotte: I think if we would compare it to the US for example, I think your, the US is, has, well, knows its inhabitants better or has a better view on, I don't know, on different communities.

I'm not sure actually if I'm saying this right, but I feel like in Belgium, even though there is all different kinds of nationalities and there's a lot of diversity, I don't feel like Belgians know that, know us, like knows these other communities. 

Meklit: Mm-hmm. 

Charlotte: Most people generally think I'm from Africa. Like, you're black, so you're from Congo, because that's the link they make with Belgium's history.

Meklit: Right. 

Charlotte: So me trying to explain that I'm not really from Africa, but that I'm from Martinique, from the French Caribbean to a lot of people that's. It's very hard to like, ah, okay. And if I tell them, yeah, not all black people come necessarily from Africa. That's like a part of history that people don't really aren't unaware of. And then, the awareness around racism, that's a new thing. I think, now every ad has a black person in it.

Meklit: Really?

 Charlotte: Like, yeah. I like it. Actually, I'm happy even though I know it's like a forced and a bit of an awkward way, because I also get contacted more because I tick all the boxes. I'm a black woman. Hmm, that's good on tv and we might get some more funds when we ask her. 

So it's like people are trying, but it gets awkward sometimes. I like not so long ago, I was on my bike and I did something that somebody in his car didn't appreciate. I still don't know what I did wrong, but to him it wasn't okay and then he told me, yeah, it's always the same with you people.

And also you use your color as a privilege. And I'm like, Oh, so my col, so me being black is a privilege I didn't know. And that's something like when you do something wrong or when you get in these types of situations, people easily go to the N words or say something about your race or make you feel like you don't, you're not from here, even though you're from here. Like even people being surprised when I speak Dutch. 

Meklit:Mm-hmm. 

Charlotte: Or complimenting me on how well I speak their language. So, yeah, that's for me. And how has it been for you as an half Asian guy?

Bolis: I always had the feeling I was like the only Asian in town.I didn't know any other Asian guys in Ghent. Okay, maybe there was like one or two that you, once in a while you saw them. But in the end I was, I felt like, and Ghent is not a, it is not a small city. It's one of the big cities in Belgium. 

When I was a child, I didn't wanna learn Chinese. My mother, she suggested my sister and I just took some lessons or she tried to teach us, but we didn't feel like it was interesting because we didn't want to be identified as Chinese.So everything that kind of like Asian part of me, we always rejected it. 

That’s something that changed when my mother passed away. And now, I did like, evening school. I’ve learned Chinese for four years. The first time I went to China and I spoke my first words of Chinese and people understood me, I felt like this whole new world opened up because it didn’t sound that abstract anymore. And people could understand what I was saying, and I could understand bits, like small parts of what they were saying. And even if it was like this, like it’s not that much. It’s just like getting through the basics, but that's already like so much.

Charlotte: That's something we also talked about a lot and we're super aware of, is feeling like this hybrid species that people don't seem to understand. We made this music, as I said, like a sort, kind of a safe space where all these elements that make us, us

 Bolis: mm-hmm. 

Charlotte: Make sense and are accepted. Like, okay, I'm a black girl, but I can't twerk. Like, and that's fine. I'm gonna make music that enables me to dance in my way. Or I speak Creole, but not that well. I'm gonna write a song in Creole, but only in the Creole I know. And then nobody, neither in Belgium, or in France, or in Martinique tell me, Oh yeah, that's strange. No, that's my music. I made my own country.

NARRATION: I made my own country.

The album is Topical Dancer, by Charlotte Adigéry and Bolis Pupul. 

Movement is produced by Ian Coss and myself, Meklit Hadero. Our co-creator and podcast godmother is Julie Caine. Our broadcast partner is The World. We are supported by the Mellon Foundation, the National Geographic Society and distributed by PRX.